What comes to mind when you think of personal brand design? Is it fonts? Colors? Logos? Images? Templates? All of the above? Or maybe none of the above?
That is not all that uncommon, a lot of people when they think of design, think of a consumer brand or something like that, or, some big corporation, but personal brands also need some design love too.
Today I’m talking with brand designer, Amy Walker from Bloom Creative about, what goes into brand design, what type of visual branding is useful for a personal brand to have, what brand parameters make sense for a personal brand to have and so much more!
While there are no hard and fast rules when it comes to personal brand design, Amy has worked with many people to design their personal brands, so she's going to tell us her expert opinion on what are good things to think about when it comes to designing your personal brand.
Tune in as we talk about the following design choices for personal brands:
[00:00] Welcome Amy Walters!
[02:36] What is the core of every personal brand design?
[04:05] How does color psychology play into selecting a brand color?
[10:22] What is important when it comes to visual branding for personal brands?
[13:03] Should personal brands have a logo?
[18:08] How do photography and brand images come into play with personal branding?
[20:39] What are some of the digital assets that are needed for a personal brand design?
[24:11] What is included in a personal brand design guide?
[26:03] What are the limits for colors and fonts in a personal brand?
[30:03] What should be taken into consideration as a brand evolves over time?
Contact Amy Walters
Linkedin: Amy Walters
Instagram: Amy Walters
Website: Bloom Creative
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Christine Gritmon: Hello, welcome to Let's Talk About Brand. I'm your host, Christine Gritmon, coming at you every single week, talking with a different guest expert about branding, especially personal branding.
Today, I'm speaking to designer Amy Walters of Bloom Creative. I saw Amy speak in London at a digital women event.
And she was talking about design and AI at that point which is something she talks a lot about, but that is not the topic of today's show. What I really wanted to talk to Amy about today was about design and personal branding. A lot of people, when they think of design, they think of, consumer brand or something like that, or, some big corporation, but personal brands also need some design love too.
So Amy and I are going to talk today about, first of all, what goes into brand design, because a brand is not the design itself. So Amy definitely is very thoughtful with her process. She's going to give us some really great insights as to the things we need to give thought to before just slapping on a color and a font and calling it a brand.
We're also going to talk about what type of visual branding is useful for a personal brand to have. We generally don't have things like packaging or brochures or any of that. What sort of things do we need designed? Should we work with a designer on? But also what sort of brand parameters make sense for a personal brand to have?
Do you need a logo? Do you need colors, fonts? How many? All of that. While there are no hard and fast rules when it comes to brand design, Amy has worked with many people to design their personal brands, so she's going to tell us her expert opinion on sort of what are good things to think about when it comes to designing your personal brand.
Without any further ado, let's bring her on! Come on down, Amy Walters!
Amy Walters: I love the applause.
Christine Gritmon: Who doesn't? My goodness. And of course, one fabulous way to warrant applause is to have fabulous branding. So I'm actually going to dive right in with you, Amy.
A lot of people, when they think about branding, They think about the design elements. They think about a color or, a logo or font treatments, things of that nature.
But as we were discussing before the show, a brand really is so much more than that. And really a brand is what goes into all of those decisions ultimately. So Amy, as a brand designer, when you're working with someone on designing the visual elements of their branding, what are some of those things that really need to be nailed down first, before you can decide how to represent that brand visually?
Amy Walters: Yeah, absolutely. It goes so much further than just what looks pretty and what's on trend so what I do with clients is talk to them about their vision for what it is they're doing so whether that's personally or in their business what it is that they are doing And what their vision and their values are and the same for their target audience because that's important too. And once you've got that sort of picture behind the heart of their business, why did they start it?
What's their passion or their project if it's not a business? And then also what their target audience like to see, then that all feeds into the branding and the visual appearance that has so much more meaning than just, we chose this because it resonated with us on some level because it looked pretty. It gives so much more meaning and that in turn, makes a brand more memorable because we as humans love to put meaning behind things.
So if we can see why it's been done, we're going to remember it more and we're going to be able to relate more with that brand and that appearance.
Christine Gritmon: To that point about us, you know, automatically imbuing things with meaning and imbuing colors and shapes and things of that nature with meaning, what are some examples of how that translates into the type of visual branding that you would use? What are some things that we already imbue with meaning that can serve as that sort of shortcut to people for what we stand for?
Amy Walters: Yeah, so colors that you touched on is a brilliant one for that. There's something called color psychology, which is the psychology behind color. When you see a color How does it make you feel? What does it make you want to do? Is it an encouraging color? And so looking into the color psychology, you can then choose colors that suit your brand your niche your industry, but also that help you to stand out. So there are colors that mean sort of happy, you know happy meanings and there are colors that are perhaps more serious and those things are really worth considering.
I think it's just it's so interesting when you dive into the psychology behind color and what each and every single one means but also on another level to that. Whilst there are meanings for, if you think the whole of society, they'll see red and that means danger, or they'll see red and that means excitement there are also meanings that are personal to every individual person so you're not going to know what those are. But you might find that your brand really resonates with a particular target client because for them personally the color means something even more than what it would mean for any other person walking down the street.
So color is a brilliant place to start, and I suppose in a way, one of those shortcuts. Because we all know what colors are, we all know that there are infinite colors and we all know the colors of the rainbow.
So if we start with colors and how the meaning of the colors link with the meaning of your business and the passion of your business and what you do, then that is a great place to start with your branding.
Christine Gritmon: Hadn't meant to go this personal this early, but Amy, Purple, Bloom Creative, your company goes with Purple. Tell me how you came to that decision.
Amy Walters: Yeah, I love the story behind my branding. It's something that I thought a lot about when I started out as a freelancer, I was using colors that I, you know, I liked and they did resonate with me and they had meaning. But actually now that I've gone purple and with Bloom Creative. There's so much more behind that.
So the story behind the purple is that when I was starting my business, there was a lot of influence of my grandma. My grandma sadly is no longer with us. She passed away in 2014, but she was a creative and she was somebody who I aspire to because she was always giving, she was generous with her time.
She was so kind and she had the creative side of being an excellent painter and being able to create things out of wool, like knitted that it was just brilliant. So she was super creative. So I looked at the color purple because that was her favorite color. She always wore purple. And then once I dove into it further, I realised that the colour purple has so much more going on in terms of the colour psychology. And it's a colour I'm drawn to, I love the colour purple too.
And there's no surprise. because something I find that people have with their kind of their brand colors, often they'll choose them. And then when they look at the color psychology afterwards, they'll realize that it's connected somehow with their business and their passions. Probably nine times out of 10, I find that happens.
And when I've shared on social about it, people comment. So you might find that. So with this color psychology behind purple, there's a lot to do with kind of creativity which makes sense. But there's also something about the color purple, which is it's one of the richest colors that doesn't fade over time.
And I think that really describes what I do in terms of enhancing people's brands and trying to create brands that don't fade. So it's not a visual brands that will last you a few years, and then you'll have to refresh it or start again, even, but it's a brand that you can start and build from, and it will last you for a huge length of time and be, enhanced and lasting instead of just something quick and simple and not complex and up and out there. But then in a year's time, you realize you want to redo it. So that kind of everlasting purple color really connects with that too. So that's you know the purple side.
Christine Gritmon: I love that. I love how much meaning you have in there for that purple color choice. And the interesting thing is... Someone else who uses purple may have a totally different meaning behind purple for it, but it also works. I know Julie Catino, who was actually the very first let's talk about brand guest back in 2020.
Her whole thing is brand twist. It's about getting influences from outside places. And she chose purple because it's a twist of, blue and red or blue and pink. They're the primary colors that are secondary in her brand, but the primary brand color is that secondary purple because it's a twist.
Oh my goodness, I love it. I chose red because it was my favorite color, but since then I've added the layers of meaning to it about excitement. Excitement and passion and enthusiasm is all my superpower. It works with the retro thing. It's so easy to pull in with, lipstick and accessories.
There's all sorts of reasons why it works. But the reason I chose it to begin with is just cause it just fit for me. It just resonated. It was something I did naturally and I could add in those elements of meaning later. But it is important to give thought to those things if you're going to really define a brand.
Which actually brings me to something I really want to discuss with you. A lot of times when we think of branding, when we think of. Not just visual branding, but branding in general, coming up with a brand, what a brand even is. We often think of a consumer brand or, a big B2B company or something of that nature.
But here at Let's Talk About Brand and in my own work, I'm all about the personal brand and personal branding varies pretty wildly. Some people feel like they do need some sort of visual branding. Some people don't bother with the visual branding. Not everyone has to be, bathed in it like I am.
First of all, I'm going to ask for your thoughts on visual branding for personal brands, because some people like having a logo. Some people are fine with just a color palette. Some people just like consistency with the overall design. Vibe. What do you feel when it comes to visual branding for personal brands and why it is useful and even why it may not be useful?
Amy Walters: Yeah, so again you hit kind of the nail on the head in terms of consistency So consistency is one of the things that is really important. I think when it comes to your visual personal branding. So if you do start to use a color palette it's important to stick to that and use it consistently.
And of course, over time, you can change it if there is reason to, but being consistent and showing up consistently, it's going to be one of those things that makes you a few things. It makes you trustworthy because you show up how people expect you to look and it makes you noticed and remembered. So people see you and they go, Oh yeah, that's you.
But then also when they need you further down the line, they think I need you. So as an example, I was having a chat, actually with my auntie I don't often see her and we had a chat at a family party recently. And she said, Oh, I nearly got some work your way because I wanted to recommend you because my work were having a rebrand.
And she said, and I got so excited that I said, I know a purple business who can do that. So for her, as soon as she heard that there was an opportunity for work, she immediately thought of me and my purple business, as she put it. Using your branding consistently, whether that's colours, whether that's fonts, whether that's carousels that look consistently the same and are engaging in design, you will be remembered.
And then thought of when people need your services. So I think that's a really good pro to having your branding defined. In terms of personal branding, there are, cons if you go a bit too far and you spend too much time perfecting your look, because naturally as humans we are not perfect and you don't want to, as your personal brand look to be the perfect person.
Because people don't follow that online, they don't want to see the perfect, they want to see the real. So as long as you're balancing that with meaningful branding that works for you, that resonates with you, and then not taking it too far and being too perfect about it, that you either don't post, or you post too infrequently, or, you restrict yourself and your content because of that, then you can create that perfect balance with your personal brand.
Christine Gritmon: If I may extrapolate from that, from what you're saying, so consistent is better than perfect, but doing it at all is even more important than consistent. You don't have to feel boxed in by the elements that you've defined if they make you unable to be a person.
Amy Walters: Exactly, absolutely exactly that. It's that kind of balance and the balance you have to keep an eye on all of the time.
Christine Gritmon: Now, how do you feel about logos for personal brands? Because I know that's a tricky one. At the beginning of my business, I had a logo, I didn't really like it, and I almost never used it. And I have since developed a logo that I love that is literally based on my own signature. It's very close to my own signature and it has the retro vibe, but it took years for me to get to a point where I had something I enjoyed using and that was flexible enough to use also because my old one only kind of worked in a square. How do you feel about personal brands and logos? Do they need them? Do they generally not and what should people consider when considering one of those for their personal brand?
Amy Walters: Yeah, so I think it changes all of the time per person. So it's definitely an individual answer. So for some people having a logo like yours that's a more signature logo, that works for them because it means they can brand stuff up that Does require a logo, whether that's on a business card or on a website.
So there are places that logos can be used for personal branding. That being said I think definitely the people i've worked with in terms of personal branding we have chosen to stick more to that sort of signature handwriting style because that feels the most personal. So it makes sense that your logo is based on your signature because that's a very personal approach to a personal branding logo. I think though, with whether or not you should have one, you can do without one.
So there are a number of social platforms you'll probably be on. If you are on those social platforms, often you'll need a profile picture. And there is a lot of kind of discussion out there as to whether your profile picture should be your photo or should be your logo. But I think we can all agree we're leaning more towards photos, especially when it's personal branding.
So if you're using your photo and your face, that sort of, I suppose, becomes your logo in that's the face of what you do. And that's what people recognize in the way that a logo might be the face of a business. So there are pros and cons. And like I say, it's completely individualized as to whether a logo would be worth it for you and your personal brand.
Work it out whether that would be something that you need and why. If you're just doing it to have a logo for logo's sake, probably not the reason.
Christine Gritmon: I absolutely love what you said about how your face can almost function as the logo. I always encourage that when people are comfortable doing it, especially if they're operating as a service provider or something where the business name is Their name, I'm Christine Gritman, Inc. And so Christine Gritman is the product is the service is what you're getting.
I'm curious as to how you decided to go with a name for your business with Bloom Creative instead of just going with Amy Walters. How did you make that decision?
Amy Walters: I actually started as Amy Walters. So when I started freelancing in 2018, I started as Amy Walters, then art and design. And I had two parts of my business and it was all very much me. I then went through some business coaching, around this time last year. So I'm coming up to Bloom Creatives one year birthday.
So around this time last year, I was coming to the end of my coaching. And in that I had discovered that actually by using my name, I was limiting myself because I was weaving my own identity with my business. And for me as a person that didn't work so well. And I needed a way to express myself creatively in a business that had its own identity, but I could also be Amy Walters, who does her creative hobbies and has her side hustles at the same time.
But I wasn't always Amy Walters and everything was part of that. So that's why I then started looking at having a name. That's when I added purple in too and bloom comes from the idea that I help businesses to bloom So you start, you know as a bud and then you'll bloom and then you'll be blossoming and I help businesses to bloom And continue to bloom so businesses who are already functioning who are already successful, but perhaps even the businesses are blooming, but their visual identity is as if they've just started out and they need to bring that up to show that they are blooming.
So it's that kind of thing. That's where bloom came from. And of course creative. I decided because I was Amy Walters, art and design, and that felt that I was even restricting myself further by just art and design, and I wanted to widen it to creatives. So I did start as Amy Walters and I built my brand there and then I changed it about a year ago
Christine Gritmon: And I also want to go back to something else that you pointed out about branding and personal brands, which is pictures. You're not a brand photographer and I've certainly had some of those on and will continue to, but I imagine that some of the design work you do. With clients, especially for personal brands incorporates photography on some level.
Do you work with photographers and clients together to figure out what's going to be on brand, what's going to work for the designs that you're doing for them? How does photography beyond the simple basic headshot, factor into the design work that you're able to do or that you love to do for clients, especially when it comes to a personal brand?
Amy Walters: Personal brand photography is so much more exciting than just your standard headshot. I work with a photographer who does my brand photography and she is brilliant at having those discussions with clients about what is it that you do? Who is it that you are as a person?
And what do you want to show in these photos? So if I give a personal example, for me, the last photo shoot we had it was my first one since becoming Bloom. So since becoming Purple, and I really wanted to make a thing of that. So I went to Tesco's one evening when all of the flowers are yellow stickered and I bought All of the purple ones and then I got myself some purple paper confetti and I found everything purple I had and of course all of my purple clothing And then I made sure that not only did I include my purple because that was the big thing that I wanted to display But also I included my personality. So we had some photos where my head is poking out from the side of stacked up board games.
And we were a bit selective where we chose the board games that had some floral element to them so that they worked. But it was to show that part of my personality in being creative is that I love to problem solve and I love to play board games. And I've got tons of flowers at home and I've got a kind of water jug that sprays and I've put on there bloom where you are planted.
And so of course that works with Bloom Creative. So we had a kind of shot of me spraying that. And that's all the different ways that you can build not only your branding in terms of the purple and the style, but also build in your personality. She is a fab person who I recommend clients to, and she can then draw out a bit further than the stuff that I would say.
I would give some guidance in terms of perhaps the style of images. And whether they need to be particularly edited or quite natural looking and the kind of lighting and stuff But she would take it and go so much further with the personality side of things weaving that with the design which is just fabulous to see and the results look on brand.
Christine Gritmon: I love that. Now, when someone is going in to have stuff designed for their personal brand, what are some things that you would typically design for someone's personal brand? What sort of digital assets? I don't know if there are any physical materials, but what are some things, I mean, I know you can run the gamut, but what are the usual things that you recommend someone who is building their personal brand out with a designer have in their design arsenal.
Amy Walters: So generally it would be the digital stuff. So a website would be something I'd recommend especially if that person as a personal brand, perhaps are representing a few different companies. So they're perhaps the CEO of a company and the director of another, and they've got a passion project and they want somewhere to be themselves in all that they do.
They might then need a website. And that's something that I would work with them to design and have a website that really encompasses their personal brand and lists all of the things they can do. Perhaps they're a speaker as well. And you know, everything, entrepreneurs tend not to stick to one thing. A website can draw all of that together. In a similar way I would then also recommend something like a set of social media banners So that then their personal brand can be really recognizable on their social profiles. So linkedin is an excellent example of that where you go on someone's page and before you even scroll to read their stuff you see their photo and then you see that banner and making use of that banner space in a really clever design way that is on brand and that shows what you do is something that I think is really important in terms of personal branding.
Christine Gritmon: Another thing that I just want to point out also on LinkedIn that I know people have noticed on mine recently is that in addition to that banner, And your profile image. You also can choose a handful of highlighted pieces of content, and you can choose, you can upload images to those as well. It might be a website link to something.
And maybe there's a default image that goes in there. You can override that and upload an image of your own. So that's just yet another opportunity you have to really drive that visual branding home on something like a LinkedIn profile.
Amy Walters: Absolutely.
Christine Gritmon: So what are some other things that people should be looking at? You mentioned social. Do you do templates for people? Do you help people with that? And what sort of things do people tend to need in that regard?
Amy Walters: Templates are something that they save time and they help you to look consistent. So it comes back to what we were talking about earlier in terms of that consistency balanced with not being perfect. If you've got a template, it's ready to go and you can fill it in. So quite often either on LinkedIn or Instagram, you'll share a carousel, perhaps of top tips or of a client testimony or something like that.
You can then use those templates. So yes, I'll design templates for clients for those kinds of things. And we'll look at what content they share regularly that can be templated and then what content perhaps can't be templated and then we'll look at some brand guidelines around those which is the phrase for a document full of ways in which to use certain colors, certain fonts, some do's and don'ts but that there's obviously flexibility because social media again does not need to be absolutely perfect.
So yeah, templates is a brilliant one.
Christine Gritmon: How much flexibility should people have generally? Again, no hard and fast rules, but generally speaking, I know a lot of us have heard about design guidelines, brand guidelines, and it's good to have some of those. But what do you recommend people define as part of their visual branding and how tightly should they define it?
I know some people have whole color palettes, some people have one color. What do you like to do with people when it comes to defining a personal brand's design guidelines?
Amy Walters: So defining colors is important, and I think being self aware of how much creativity and creative license you like to have for yourself can help you decide how many brand colors to have. So you might be someone who has one or two, or you might be someone who has a batch of additional colors.
Secondary tertiary colors that you can dip in and out of so that if you perhaps get a bit bored. I think creatives do have the tendency. So if you are a creative with a personal brand, sometimes have the tendency to get a bit bored with doing the same thing. Then you can dip into those secondary, those tertiary colors.
Having that awareness about yourself can help you to build a personal brand that works for you and isn't restricted. And I'd also include. fonts in personal branding and that just helps with consistency. If you're always changing up your fonts, you run the risk of looking probably a little bit more amateur than you are.
And you're not going to be recognized quite so much because people will see you appearing differently every time. And again, that could break some of that trust because you're not appearing how they expect to see you. But outside of colors and fonts, you can go as deeply as looking at exactly the style of images and the style of videos you create, and even the transitions that you use.
But if you're consistently showing up with your colors and your fonts, I would say that's where you need to really stick to. And then the other stuff, you can have some flexibility. But knowing what you need as a person when you're designing stuff or what you need when you're sharing stuff, if you have a designer do it for you is really helpful to then know how much flexibility to give yourself in those guidelines or to tell your designer to give you in those guidelines.
Christine Gritmon: Around how many colors and fonts do you recommend defining as part of that style guide? Again, for a personal brand, so it's not going to be a huge consumer corporate brand that maybe has as many applications for it as a personal brand may, but at the same time, just one font, just one color, what do you think is a good kind of family to have in there?
Amy Walters: When it comes to fonts, I often suggest two. So I have, it's a strange connection, but it works to remember it. Two in one shampoo and conditioner, I say have no more than two fonts in one design because then it becomes overwhelming. So likewise in your branding, if you're smaller and not that huge corporate entity, then you can have that two fonts in one brand.
And so that helps you then to not. To not look too busy to not have too many things going on to not have too much to choose from and help with your consistency and those two fonts generally, you would expect one to perhaps be a bit more bold and used as titles or kind of the hook of a post and then the other to be more perhaps sans serif or which doesn't have all those fancy lines sticking out of the letters.
So it's very clean and use that for perhaps paragraph text or going into more detail. And that not only helps to get attention with the first font but it also helps when a user is looking at your carousels. They're able to see the top points that are in bold that are the different font and they can see that immediately and go.
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I agree with all of that or oh, That makes sense Oh i'm learning something new and then they get to one and they might want to read a bit more. They can then see the smaller cleaner font underneath and go there to read more. So two fonts as a general rule for personal branding would work well for most people. And then when it comes to colours, again, I would say one or two as a main colour.
Quite often you'll see people using a single colour, like you and your red, and me and my purple. But then I don't know about you with your red, but I have a few shades of my purple. And then I have some very tertiary colours that kind of come into play that are yellows and oranges and blues. So that if I do need the colours of the rainbow, I've got ones that I default to.
So you could have your kind of main one or two, and then a... few, perhaps up to five of the secondary ones. But again, it's so hard without individualizing it to have a hard and fast rule.
Christine Gritmon: Absolutely. I gave a lot of thought to this myself, especially in 2020 in August, 2020, I got a little more serious with defining my visual brand. I looked at. So many combinations of kind of that showy font and that secondary font before I came to these ones. And I defined my shade of red.
My shade of red is one specific shade of red, but my secondary colors are really just black and white. I'm about to start mixing in some tertiary brand colors. Simply because, I am me, and I feel like a human brand should evolve and follow the person. And there have been a couple colors I've been wearing a lot of lately.
I've gotten very into dark blue, and I've gotten into this kind of, golden tan color. And those both look good with red. So stay tuned for that. folks. A little bit of that mixed in with the red and black and white of the classic Coca Cola whatnot look.
Amy Walters: And I love that. And it goes to show that a personal brand isn't necessarily defined and then you have to have it forever. It can grow with you.
Christine Gritmon: Yeah, so I actually, I think that's the last thing I want to ask you about, which is personal brand... Evolutions how can you, how do you work with people to evolve a brand so that they're not entirely starting from scratch, they are building on that existing brand equity, maybe when they started out, they just did it themselves and they're realizing they want to step it up and work with an actual designer and you don't want to just, ruin every, trash everything they've done before and start from scratch.
What are some things to keep in mind when evolving a brand?
Amy Walters: So I define this as a brand refresh as opposed to a redesign because I think redesign makes it sound like you are starting from scratch, whereas a refresh is bringing in some new feel to what is already there. I think it's important always to consider what people already know you as and see you as.
And so when I work with clients in a brand refresh kind of way We'll look first at what they've got already We'll look at why we've got those things already if there is a reason And then we'll look at what it is that their target audience or their current clients know them for and that will help us to know what to keep and what to change And then when it comes to evolving that Often, if there isn't meaning, definitely if there isn't meaning behind those colours or the branding itself, we will add that meaning in, and that might come with a few colour changes or shades of colour changes.
But it all comes from a place of meaning, and so it grows as the kind of personal brand has grown.
And building out your network and changing things, then we can look at how the design can evolve to match that and have that same passion and meaning behind it.
So there'll be some things that perhaps an icon will stay, but the way the icon looks will be updated or we'll change the icon altogether, but we'll keep the style of font. I worked with a client who had a kind of Korean calligraphy style of font because of where he grew up and because of what his kind of business name was it made sense that we kept that But instead of keeping there's a very limited number of korean calligraphy fonts available, what we then did was make him one.
So I designed one from scratch that kind of was reflective of that style. And then he had a very updated, more modern looking, clean looking font for his logo. But he looked the same to somebody who had seen him before or worked with him before. They still knew that was him and his brand.
Christine Gritmon: Ah, I love all of this, Amy. I could geek out on this forever with you. For anyone else who would like to geek out with you, Amy, please tell the good folks at home where they can find you, why they should find you and what they will find there.
Amy Walters: So I am mostly active on LinkedIn, so I'd recommend finding me on there. I am Amy Walters, and if you type in bloom creative that might help you find me there too. I'm the purple one if you hadn't already guessed from the discussion we had. If you want to find me on Instagram, it's at bloom.creative.uk. And then my website is bloom-creative.co.Uk. And what you'll find there is more of this kind of chat. Looking into tips and stuff around design and branding. A little bit of AI now too. And you can sign up to email newsletters and stuff if you would like to get even more.
Christine Gritmon: Beautiful. Thank you so much, Amy. It has been a pleasure.
Amy Walters: Thank you for having me.
Christine Gritmon: And thank you for listening to Let's Talk About Brand. Whether you are listening to us on your podcast player of choice, or if you're watching the video podcast, hi, over on YouTube. Either way, please do subscribe, please leave a review if you liked it, and please do come back next week when I'll be here talking to another smart guest expert about a different element of personal branding.
Bye!